Jan 31 2026
AI Product Discovery Drives Brand Traffic

Phillip Jackson’s media company, Future Commerce, focuses on trends and developments in business.

The company surveyed U.S. shoppers during the 2025 holiday season. He says one insight stood out: when AI recommends a product, 77% of respondents leave the platform to buy on the brand’s site.

Phillip first appeared on the podcast in early 2024. In this our latest conversation, he addressed the downsides of optimized ecommerce sites, the outlook of traditional search, and, yes, the rise of autonomous shopping agents.

The entire audio of our conversation is embedded below. The transcript is edited for length and clarity.

Eric Bandholz: Bring us up to date.

Phillip Jackson: Future Commerce is a media company exploring the culture of commerce through newsletters, podcasts, research, and events.

When you and I last spoke, I remember thinking, “I’m made for this.” It felt like everything I’ve learned over my entire career was in one place.

Ecommerce was difficult when I started in 1999. I spent more than a decade working for a direct-to-consumer seller of natural health products. We hand-coded sites in HTML, ran Google AdWords, and scaled multiple brands.

Bandholz: Is it better in 2026?

Jackson: I’ve been saying since around 2019 that we’ve reached the ideal website. We’ve optimized ecommerce experiences to death, and what’s left is efficiency and boredom.

We do a lot of consumer and executive research at Future Commerce. In one study published around 2022, we analyzed about 15 of the world’s highest-traffic ecommerce sites, excluding Amazon. Think brands like Bath & Body Works and Bed Bath & Beyond. We removed logos and navigation, then showed the pages to consumers. Most people couldn’t tell one site from another because they’re functionally identical.

That level of optimization is powerful, but it has a downside: it’s unmemorable. These sites are designed for conversion, not for recall or cultural impact. They’re slippery. You buy, you leave, and nothing sticks.

You see this everywhere in culture. Netflix is a great example. It’s incredible how they use data to maximize completion rates, which is why they release entire seasons at once. The data probably proves it works. But it doesn’t show what’s lost: cultural conversation. Shows released across many weeks remain part of the culture for extended periods.

The same thing has happened in ecommerce and product design. Websites, sport utility vehicles, smartphones, and even electric toothbrushes all converge on the same form.

Many industry folks hope AI will make ecommerce exciting again, but real innovation requires risk, which few companies are willing to take on.

Bandholz: Will marketplaces and AI replace brand websites?

Jackson: There’s a lot packed into that question, and we actually have data around it. On the practical side, the website isn’t going anywhere. Advertisers may shift platforms, and AI-driven discovery is clearly changing behavior, especially among Gen Zs. Generative AI sites have become a trusted source for product and brand discovery.

We researched consumer AI usage before and after the 2025 holidays. One insight stood out. When AI recommends a product, shoppers overwhelmingly prefer to leave the platform and visit the brand’s website. Across two studies, two cohorts, and multiple English-speaking countries, 77% said they would rather click through to the website than buy inside the AI interface.

That challenges the narrative that AI agents will handle all purchasing. I’m bullish on agents long term, but the website remains the center of context, trust, and information for generative engines.

Interestingly, AI may affect physical retail more quickly than digital. In our data, 35% of Gen Zs and 40% of Gen Xs said they’d rather buy based on an AI recommendation than go to a store.

More broadly, old and new systems always coexist. Markets don’t disappear; they evolve. The brands that survive will have durable products, a clear identity, and strong relationships. Almost certainly they will have websites. Everything else is still up for debate.

Bandholz: Will genAI replace traditional search?

Jackson: We’re seeing signs of that shift. However, there are economic questions to answer. What companies win the AI race? Which consumer products become dominant?

Yes, AI is disruptive, but it’s also introducing a new modality in our relationship with digital culture. It isn’t just a search box. It’s a different kind of interaction. I see it as complementary rather than exclusive. Traditional systems don’t vanish overnight; they adapt and coexist. AI changes behavior, but it layers onto existing habits rather than erasing them.

Bandholz: What’s your advice to folks starting in ecommerce?

Jackson: Some level of investment in genAI visibility is non-negotiable. Consumers are increasingly turning to engines like ChatGPT for product recommendations. If you’re not tracking whether your brand shows up there, you should be. It may be the closest thing we have to true organic discovery.

Beyond that, many newer providers aren’t living up to their promised disruption. TikTok Shop, for example, is essentially an affiliate channel. It’s powerful, but it’s not going to change fundamentally how everyone shops.

Bandholz: What major macro trends are you watching?

Jackson: The first is machine autonomy. Every business, from the smallest startup to the largest enterprise, is pushing for more automation and productivity. You see it with self-driving vehicles, delivery robots, and last-mile automation. You also see it in companies, with systems that operate without human intervention. That shift is happening fast.

The second force is human sovereignty, driven by mistrust in institutions. The Edelman Trust Barometer in early 2026 is at a 25-year low. People don’t trust governments, corporations, or systems the way they used to. At the same time, they now have tools to verify claims, build their own worldviews, and take control of decisions.

Healthcare is an example. Individuals can now monitor their own health and interpret data in ways that weren’t possible five years ago.

These two forces — autonomy and sovereignty — can complement each other, but they can also collide. Brands that understand how to navigate both, at any scale, will define the next era of commerce.

Bandholz: How can listeners follow you and reach out?

Jackson: Our site is FutureCommerce.com. We’re on X, YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn as well.

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Jan 24 2026
M&A Advisor on Ecommerce Valuations

Frank Kosarek is the co-founder of BizPort, a mergers-and-acquisitions marketplace launched in November 2025. Before that, he was head of acquisitions for a large ecommerce aggregator.

He says buyers of ecommerce businesses today focus on discretionary earnings, not revenue, and seek recurring sales, such as subscriptions.

He addressed those items, the state of ecommerce M&A, and more in our recent conversation.

Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for length and clarity.

Eric Bandholz: Who are you, and what do you do?

Frank Kosarek: I’m the co-founder of BizPort, a marketplace that helps founders exit their companies. I lead BizPort’s ecommerce division, connecting buyers and sellers. Before BizPort, I was the head of mergers and acquisitions at OpenStore, an aggregator in Miami, where I acquired about 50 Shopify brands. That experience exposed me to ecommerce transactions and what founders should and shouldn’t do when preparing to sell their businesses.

One of the most important concepts in exits is the seller’s discretionary earnings. It’s the foundation of most ecommerce valuations. SDE starts with a company’s annual net income (what’s on the tax return), then adds back the owner’s salary and benefits, and any one-time or non-recurring expenses.

For example, if a business earns $250,000 in net income, the founder pays herself $100,000, has $40,000 in benefits, and incurs a one-time $10,000 legal expense, the SDE would be about $400,000. That number is then multiplied by a valuation multiple, typically 2x to 2.5x for most ecommerce brands, and up to 5x for category leaders.

The best advice for founders is to track SDE monthly. Know your true net income and add-backs. It gives you a clear picture of growth and future valuation.

Eric Bandholz: What’s the demand for ecommerce acquisitions?

Frank Kosarek: Ecommerce experienced extreme acceleration in 2020. We saw years of growth compressed into about 12 months as Covid reshaped consumer behavior. During that period, valuation multiples increased, and many ecommerce businesses launched that probably shouldn’t have. Some lacked product-market fit or a dependable, repeat customer base.

What’s changed since then is buyer behavior. Aggregators, in particular, have pulled back or refined their strategies. As a result, sellers can no longer assume there’s an easy, quick exit waiting for them. Acquirers are more selective and more disciplined about what they buy.

Companies that exist at top multiples tend to resemble subscription businesses. A one-time purchase product, such as a kids’ tricycle, doesn’t create much long-term value if the customer never returns. Compare that to categories such as skincare or supplements, where consumers can subscribe and reorder. Buyers focus heavily on lifetime value and how much revenue they can generate from a customer after paying to acquire them.

That’s why brands without repeat or subscription-driven revenue often see leaner valuations, while strong subscription-heavy brands can still command multiples closer to 5x SDE.

Eric Bandholz: What’s the minimum revenue level to sell an ecommerce business?

Frank Kosarek: At BizPort, we generally look for brands doing at least $1 million in annual revenue before getting involved. At that level, ecommerce margins usually provide enough cash flow to underwrite a transaction, whether through a loan, capital injection, or both. That’s typically the minimum size where an acquisition becomes feasible.

When annual revenue reaches $30 million, potential buyers include private equity firms or larger strategic buyers. Those acquirers are more likely to evaluate businesses using revenue multiples instead of earnings multiples. There isn’t a hard line, but it’s an important distinction for founders to be aware of as their brands scale.

Eric Bandholz: How do founders separate personal attachment from fair market value?

Frank Kosarek: M&A for small ecommerce brands is much more art than science. There’s no one-size-fits-all deal structure. Most ecommerce founders have very high expectations for their company’s value, often thinking in large multiples of revenue.

That’s understandable because building a brand from the ground up requires a huge amount of work, much of which doesn’t show up on an income statement. That effort is intangible, and outside buyers can’t fully appreciate it from financials alone. Plus, many founders don’t realize that a multiple of discretionary earnings, not top-line revenue, typically values ecommerce businesses. That often leads to a reality check.

Eric Bandholz: How often do earn-outs fail?

Frank Kosarek: Some sellers want a complete exit with no ongoing involvement, and buyers generally understand that. Still, a smart buyer will usually negotiate a transition period, often three to six months, to help transfer operations and institutional knowledge. Additional support can turn into a short-term consulting agreement in which sellers receive a fixed monthly fee. In that case, sellers no longer have equity or performance-based upside; they’re simply helping with continuity.

I’ve seen situations where sellers and buyers clash operationally or strategically. When that happens, earn-outs often suffer. Sellers miss targets and don’t receive additional payouts, and buyers struggle because the transition doesn’t go smoothly.

Bandholz: What can stop a deal or hurt valuation?

Kosarek: One major piece of advice for sellers is to sell when your numbers are strong. Don’t wait until performance starts to decline or the market turns against you. Be open to exploratory conversations, especially after a banner year. Waiting until the curve crashes makes exits much harder.

Another common mistake is overspending on marketing to inflate top-line revenue. For smaller ecommerce brands, valuation is typically based on profit, not revenue. Pumping the top line at the expense of the bottom usually doesn’t earn a premium.

Another red flag is a lack of operational structure. Buyers don’t want to walk into a business and have to build everything from scratch. They want to see systems and processes in place. That includes working with a third-party logistics provider for fulfillment and returns, clear ownership of marketing functions, and documented processes.

Buyers’ confidence in the deal increases when they can quickly understand how the company operates and distributes work.

Bandholz: Where can people follow you, reach out to you?

Kosarek: Our site is Biz-port.com. You can find me on LinkedIn.

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Jan 17 2026
DIY Approach Fuels Craft Cocktail Brand

Chris Harrison says it all started with a single pot on a stove. He and two high school buddies launched Liber & Co., a manufacturer of premium cocktail syrups, with that tiny test batch in 2011 in Austin, Texas.

Fast forward to 2026, and batches are now in 1,500-gallon tanks and sold worldwide to restaurants, bars, and consumers. But the culture remains hands-on, do-it-yourself, and learn-by-doing.

Chris first appeared on the podcast in 2022. In our recent conversation, he shared the company’s origins, sourcing tactics, growth plans, and more. Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for clarity and length.

Eric Bandholz: Who are you, and what do you do?

Chris Harrison: I’m a co-founder of Liber & Co. We make premium non-alcoholic cocktail syrups for bars, restaurants, coffee shops, and home consumers. We’re based in Georgetown, Texas, near Austin, and handle almost everything in-house: manufacturing, warehousing, marketing, ecommerce, wholesale, and even international sales.

Our founding team grew up together in the same small Texas town. We’re the same age, went to the same high school, and came from similar blue-collar backgrounds. We didn’t have a big professional network or capital to outsource everything, so if something needed to be done, we learned to do it ourselves.

We’re also food people. You can’t outsource being a foodie or understanding flavor. Even the best chefs are hands-on in the kitchen, tasting, adjusting, and refining. That mindset shaped Liber & Co. from the beginning. We wanted to be close to the product to understand the ingredients, sourcing, and flavor development firsthand. That do-it-yourself culture became part of our identity.

Bandholz: How did you learn production, moving from a kitchen to a manufacturing facility?

Harrison: It’s a long, incremental journey. We relied on research and trial and error. We started with a small stock pot on a stove, then moved to a 25-gallon pan, then a 200-gallon tank, and now we operate multiple 1,500-gallon tanks.

That gradual progression was critical. You can’t attempt too much without putting the business at risk. If we had jumped straight from a kitchen setup to our current scale, we would have made far more expensive mistakes. Iterating step by step gave us time to understand what worked and what didn’t. There aren’t many shortcuts when you’re building something physical.

Our product category also made things harder. Unlike breweries, which often follow well-established scaling paths, there wasn’t a clear blueprint for cocktail syrups. That meant a lot of independent study, testing equipment, ordering samples, and experimenting with processes. We made mistakes along the way, which were part of the learning curve.

Manufacturing your own product limits capacity. You can’t sell more than you can physically make. There’s no co-manufacturer to absorb demand — you are the bottleneck. That was especially true in the early days.

Early on, we did whatever it took to fulfill orders. I spent 18 hours straight in the kitchen more than once to fill large orders for H-E-B, the grocery chain. It was manual work: long days, minimal breaks, and just pushing through. Thirteen years later, we’re grateful we no longer have to operate that way.

Bandholz: How do you find ingredient suppliers?

Harrison: Most of our sourcing has come from research. That includes a lot of Googling, using ChatGPT and Gemini, and contacting suppliers directly. We typically send a detailed request for proposal outlining who we are, what we need, and our product specifications. Then we ask if they can meet those requirements, provide documentation, and send samples. From there, we test and evaluate.

We cast a wide net geographically. With ginger, for example, we looked at suppliers across Africa, China, Vietnam, and Hawaii before ultimately choosing a Peruvian source. Some leads come from word of mouth. Someone might say, “I saw great ginger in Peru.” I’ll track down the producer through Google or LinkedIn. That actually happened.

It takes persistence. My background is in biology, so I enjoy getting into the weeds, so to speak. We also try to maintain backup suppliers. Fresh produce is unpredictable; pineapple crops suffered globally this year, driving up prices. A frozen backup supply helped smooth costs, but sourcing is never easy or guaranteed.

Bandholz: Is frozen produce better than fresh?

Harrison: In many cases, yes, frozen can be better. Farmers can wait until fruit reaches peak ripeness before harvesting. For something like raspberries, they’ll test sugar content the day of harvest using a refractometer. They literally crush the fruit and measure Brix, the dissolved-sugar level. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration even publishes approved Brix ranges for various fruits, such as peaches, pomegranates, and raspberries.

Farmers aim to hit those targets because that’s where flavor, aroma, and sweetness are best. But it comes from ripening on the vine. Once harvested, the fruit must be used immediately or preserved. Freezing is one of the best ways to lock in that peak quality.

Frozen storage requires capital. Cold storage and refrigerated transportation are expensive, but the tradeoff is consistency and quality. The frozen supply chain has expanded significantly. We’re seeing more investment in large-scale frozen facilities across the country. Even in central Texas, companies are building new frozen warehouses. We use one in North Austin.

If you’re serious about sourcing high-quality food ingredients, the frozen cold chain is often the best option.

Plus, we typically purchase small portions. Large companies such as Smucker’s buy in massive bulk. We like buying from cooperatives of many smaller, independent farms. Certain regions grow crops naturally well. For raspberries, that’s the U.S. Pacific Northwest, parts of Washington and Oregon.

Those regions have family-run farms, often third-generation operations, managing anywhere from 20 to 200 acres. Around them are many similar farms, all growing the same crop in the same climate. That creates a strong network effect: consistent weather, shared knowledge, and reliable quality across the region.

Because these farms remain independent, you avoid some of the downsides of large, consolidated operations. There’s less pressure to cut corners, harvest early, or sacrifice quality to maximize margins. In our experience, the cooperative model prioritizes long-term quality and sustainability.

We might buy one or two truckloads of fruit per year — roughly 40,000 to 80,000 pounds. A cooperative, by contrast, may handle 400 or 500 truckloads in a single harvest. Being a small buyer reduces risk. If we relied on a single farm for everything, we’d be far more vulnerable to supply disruptions.

Bandholz: How do you plan to evolve the brand?

Harrison: We don’t feel limited. We’ve explored packaging formats beyond bottles, which we currently use for syrups. Cans are a natural extension for cocktails, mocktails, or even cannabis beverages. From a formulation, sourcing, and food safety perspective, we could make those products. Packaging is often the most expensive part of goods. It can feel like a constraint, but it’s more about investment and logistics than capability.

At our scale, outsourcing packaging formats is possible. Specialized manufacturers can handle canning at scale. The primary considerations are unit economics and lack of control. That’s a philosophical question as much as a business one.

Overall, we see opportunities to grow both vertically and horizontally. We can deepen what we already do with syrups or expand into new formats, product types, and channels. Brand evolution is more about strategy, resources, and willingness to experiment while maintaining quality and authenticity.

Bandholz: Where can people buy your syrups and get in touch?

Harrison: Our site is LiberAndCompany.com. I’m on LinkedIn.

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Jan 10 2026
Ecommerce Success with Fractional Talent

In his previous appearance on the podcast, in November 2022, Jai Dolwani was the CMO of a wine subscription company that would shortly declare bankruptcy. It was his third struggling startup, he says, prompting “serious self-reflection.”

The result? He pivoted to entrepreneurship and launched The Starters, a marketplace for fractional ecommerce talent, in late 2023. The company has thrived, having attracted more than 600 freelancers and 500 client brands.

In our recent conversation, Jai addressed the demand for ecommerce talent, tips for hiring freelancers, and plans for 2026 and beyond.

Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for length and clarity.

Eric Bandholz: Tell us what you do.

Jai Dolwani: I’m the founder of The Starters, a company that helps ecommerce brands access top-tier fractional talent through a curated, vetted marketplace. We connect brands with experienced marketers, creatives, and technologists — professionals who’ve helped build some of the world’s best companies — so they can hire flexibly and efficiently.

Before that, I was CMO at Winc, a wine subscription company. We had recently gone public, but behind the scenes, the business struggled. A few weeks after my last conversation with you, Winc declared bankruptcy and was later acquired. I was offered a role, but it marked my third startup in a row to fail financially, prompting some serious self-reflection.

I questioned whether it was bad luck or my own shortcomings. Ultimately, I decided I needed full ownership of outcomes and became an entrepreneur. I bootstrapped the business with a $5,000 personal investment, and it’s grown steadily since. My mission now is twofold: help freelancers find meaningful, flexible work and help ecommerce brands build lean, efficient, and profitable organizations.

Bandholz: You’re building a two-sided marketplace. How did you attract talent early and create traction?

Dolwani: From day one, my philosophy was to attract the best talent first, and brands will follow. Brands are always on the hunt for top talent. To do that, we built what I believe is the most talent-friendly marketplace in the industry.

We don’t charge freelancers a commission. Unlike platforms such as Upwork or Fiverr, 100% of what freelancers bill goes directly to them. We offer private profiles. Many top performers already have jobs and don’t want a public marketplace profile visible to employers, so access is limited to vetted brands. We also avoid the race to the bottom. Most marketplaces become transactional and price-driven, with median rates of $10 to $15 per hour. We stay highly curated and vetted, focusing on strategic fit over cost.

As a result, talent on our platform competes on expertise, not price. The median rate is about $90 per hour, reflecting quality and outcomes. We’ve attracted executives from nine-figure companies and world-class specialists who would never join typical freelance platforms.

Early on, it was hard — sourcing and onboarding the first freelancers myself. Over time, strong experiences generated word-of-mouth from freelancers and brands.

Bandholz: If talent keeps 100%, how does your business make money?

Dolwani: We monetize exclusively on the brand side. Brands pay $295 per month to access the platform and hire talent through us. We charge the fee upfront, before they can view or contact freelancers, which ensures high intent. If a brand isn’t satisfied or we can’t meet its needs, we refund the fee.

This model is simple and fair. We’re not trying to build a billion-dollar, venture-backed company. We’re bootstrapped, and the pricing reflects the value we provide while allowing freelancers to keep 100% of their rates.

Payments to freelancers go through Stripe. We never touch that money — funds move directly from the brand to the freelancer. We orchestrate the experience and facilitate the connection, while the working relationship remains direct.

Most of our clients are ecommerce brands earning $1–10 million that need support but aren’t ready for full-time hires, though we also help pre-launch and nine-figure companies.

Bandholz: How do brands work with talent on your platform, and what types of expertise can they access?

Dolwani: Engagements are flexible and depend on what the brand and freelancer agree on, but I recommend a clear progression. Start with a small, capped hourly trial — around five hours — to evaluate quality. If the work doesn’t impress you immediately, it likely won’t improve. After that, work together for one to two months on an hourly basis, with a cap, to understand the output, speed, and communication.

Once expectations are clear and things are working well, shifting to a monthly retainer makes sense. Retainers reduce time tracking and keep everyone focused on outcomes rather than hours.

We now have just over 600 vetted professionals on the platform. Our core strengths are marketing, creative, and technology — everything from media buyers and fractional CMOs to designers, creative directors, Shopify developers, and heads of data and analytics. We’ve recently expanded into operations, product development, supply chain, finance, and retail expansion for consumer package brands, with more growth planned for 2026.

We’ve succeeded at our initial goal of helping ecommerce brands access better fractional talent than they’d find elsewhere. But the world is changing. As AI reduces the need for human execution, the value shifts away from task completion toward specialized knowledge and better decision-making.

Companies will win because they have deeper human insight guiding strategy. That’s where I see us going. Beyond a freelancer marketplace, we’re building a home for ecommerce expertise.

That means making knowledge accessible through courses, guides, webinars, live Q&As, consulting calls, and ongoing advisory relationships — hiring being just one option. Long-term, we hope The Starters becomes a destination for ecommerce brands to build their “human advantage” to create differentiated strategies and win.

Bandholz: Where can people follow you? Hire some freelancers?

Dolwani: Our site is Hirethestarters.com. I’m on X and LinkedIn.

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Dec 20 2025
The Good, Bad, and Ugly of 2025

I talk a lot on the podcast about business, growth, and solving problems, but at some point it’s worth stepping back to ask why we’re doing any of this in the first place.

This recap is about Beardbrand (my company) and our 2025 performance: What worked, what didn’t, what was painful, and what made it all worth it.

It’s also a reminder to take stock of your own priorities — how you’re allocating your time, energy, and attention — and whether they align with the life you’re trying to build.

The Good

Longtime listeners know that 2023 and 2024 were extremely challenging for me personally and for Beardbrand. We lost a lot of money in 2023 and less, but still meaningful, in 2024. The good news is that in 2025, we became profitable again.

Looking back, our conservative financial strategy before things turned bad helped us survive. It allowed us to withstand rapid market changes and support our staff for as long as possible. That discipline helped us weather the storm.

From a growth standpoint, subscriptions have been a major win. At our lowest point, we had roughly 1,500 subscriptions. We made a focused effort to rebuild, and recently we surpassed 11,000 active subscriptions. Hitting 10,000-plus gives us predictable revenue and long-term stability. Churn has remained low, and we’re still adding members weekly, which is encouraging.

Another big win was finding the right fulfillment partner. After two moves — including one near our manufacturer that didn’t work out — we landed on a small Austin-based provider. The staff offers white-glove service, takes responsibility when issues arise, and aligns with the customer experience we want to deliver. Plus, being local helps. We can visit, meet the team, and fine-tune packaging and shipping costs.

Manufacturing has also improved. Finding the right manufacturing partner is a Goldilocks problem — not too big, not too small, just right. One of our supplier-partners discovered us through this podcast. They’ve allowed us to keep inventory lean, place smaller, more frequent orders, and maintain quality. That’s reduced customer complaints, lowered stress, and helped us avoid unsellable inventory — a major contributor to losses in prior years.

Engagement with customers has improved as we let them vote on which limited-edition fragrance would become permanent.

Another win — we subleased our oversized office, a costly remnant from when our team size was at its peak, easing a significant financial burden until the lease ends in 2026.

The Bad

The biggest hurdle is that the beard care industry has shifted from a blue to a red ocean. A blue ocean is wide open — lots of opportunity, little competition. Today, beard care feels saturated and stagnant.

I see this in search data. Terms like “how to grow a beard,” “beard oil,” and “beard balm” are flat or declining. Meanwhile, other personal care categories such as shampoo, bar soap, and cologne continue to grow. When I look at Beardbrand and our top competitors, we’re all flat or down.

One way to resume growth is with organic content. We’ve had content hits and misses, but we haven’t reliably delivered the quality and volume I want. If we fix it, we can deepen relationships with our audience and stand out again.

Paid media has also been frustrating. Like many brands, we haven’t cracked Meta at scale. We’ll find an ad that works, get excited, then watch it fall flat days later. We’ve hovered around $30,000 a month in spend without breaking through. We recently started integrating more data-driven decision-making.

I expected revenue to grow in 2025 after fixing problems from 2023 and 2024. That didn’t happen. We likely won’t beat last year’s numbers, which forced us to make painful staffing cuts — letting go of two long-tenured, incredible team members. That was one of the hardest decisions I’ve had to make.

Amazon sales have also regressed. We’ve worked with the same agency for three years, and while they’ve done good work, it feels like we’ve plateaued. We’re planning to switch partners.

The Ugly

Overall, 2025 was fairly stress-free, which I’ll gladly take. The biggest issue was that we got sued again. This one came from a patent troll.

Patent lawsuits are very different from the Americans with Disabilities Act lawsuit, which we chose to fight. We had invested heavily in making our site accessible for people with disabilities, including those with vision impairments, and ultimately, we were able to get that case dismissed.

Patent cases are another story. The financial risk of fighting is much higher. Defending the ADA lawsuit cost roughly the same as a settlement. Given where Beardbrand was after multiple years of losses, I swallowed my pride and settled.

What made the decision easier is that, once settled, a patent holder cannot sue again for the same alleged infringement. Another party would need to hold the same patent, which is unlikely. I feel at peace with the choice. The direct-to-consumer community on X was also incredibly helpful, connecting us with a great attorney, which made the process smoother.

Hopefully, that’s the last lawsuit for a while. We’re doing everything we can to protect ourselves — updated privacy policies, cookie consent for pixel tracking in applicable states, and ongoing ADA audits.

Personal Wins and Losses

One of my goals for 2026 is to return to a “profit first” mindset — building a business that’s profitable while also supporting my personal life. Over the past few years, I’ve pulled from savings to maintain our standard of living. I’m grateful I had that cushion, but I don’t want it to be the norm.

The highlight of 2025 was a trip to Japan with my 12-year-old daughter. Travel is something we both love, and it gave us a shared experience during a fleeting stage of life. This trip felt meaningful for her and me as she grows into her own independence. I’m incredibly pleased we did it.

Health-wise, it’s been a good year. I’m rowing again, lifting consistently, and I avoided major injuries. My wife and kids have been healthy, which I never take for granted.

I’m also profoundly grateful for my friends — in Austin, online, and the broader D2C community — who’ve helped me navigate challenging moments.

There was a personal loss, however. My wife and I transferred our final IVF embryo, and it wasn’t successful. That chapter is now closed after more than a decade of infertility and loss. I share this because many are going through similar struggles. You’re not alone.

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Dec 13 2025
Expat Money CEO on Moving Abroad

In “How to Leave the U.S.A.,” the venerable New Yorker magazine recently addressed what many residents have apparently considered.

Yet Mikkel Thorup has lived outside of his native Canada for 25 years. He’s visited 120 countries and resided in nine of them. His business, Expat Money, helps others do the same while protecting assets and lifestyle.

Why relocate overseas? What are the risks and the rewards? Mikkel answered those questions and more in our recent conversation.

Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for clarity and length.

Eric Bandholz: What do you do?

Mikkel Thorup: I am the founder and CEO of Expat Money, a consulting firm that helps people relocate to a foreign country. We focus on international tax planning, immigration, foreign investment, and global structuring, as well as the lifestyle adjustments that come with living abroad.

I’ve been an expatriate for 25 years, visited 120 countries, lived in nine, and circled the globe many times. My family, business, and hobbies are all international. I love the work and am excited to talk about it.

I was born and raised in Canada, which does not impose worldwide taxation. Once you leave and cut ties with the Canada Revenue Agency, you’re free to live abroad without ongoing tax obligations.

For Americans, it’s very different. The IRS levies taxes based on citizenship, not residency. No matter where you live or how long you’re gone, the IRS wants a portion of every dollar you earn. Only two countries tax this way: the United States and Eritrea, a small African nation.

Americans can sometimes avoid tax if they earn below standard thresholds, but anyone with meaningful income — whether living in the U.S. or abroad — remains subject to the IRS.

Renouncing citizenship is an option if you want to end all U.S. reporting requirements, but it’s a deeply personal decision and not something I generally recommend. Some people choose it, and we assist clients with the process, but most of our work does not require giving up citizenship.

We help Americans move overseas all the time, and there are legal tools that can significantly reduce their tax burden. I’m not giving individual tax advice here, but there are viable strategies available. Still, at higher wealth levels, those tools eventually hit limits, so it’s important to understand what’s possible.

Everything we do follows the law. My goal is to help people gain more freedom, not less, and that means full compliance with the IRS, U.S. Treasury, and all reporting rules. I have no interest in ending up in an orange jumpsuit, and I don’t want that for clients either.

Bandholz: Do people come to you mainly for freedom or to reduce obligations?

Thorup: Most clients want a “Plan B,” an economic backup. They’re productive people, typically in two groups: about half are highly paid professionals such as doctors, lawyers, and accountants, and the other half are business owners or entrepreneurs, such as consultants and Amazon sellers.

For many, the goal is preparing an exit option in case things get bad enough that they want to leave. Others feel things are already bad and choose to relocate now, often to the Caribbean or Latin America for more freedom, lower taxes, safer communities, and better weather. When they make that move, opportunities open up quickly.

But leaving isn’t required. Plenty stay in the U.S., Canada, the U.K., or elsewhere while setting up offshore components — bank accounts, property, company structures, or residency options. Others go all-in and decide to work from a beach somewhere. My job is to create those legal, compliant structures so they have choices, whether they stay or go.

Around 90% of my clients are from the U.S. and Canada; the remaining 10% are mainly from Europe or Australia. Latin America and the Caribbean are the top destinations because that’s where people often find the most freedom — pro-business, low taxes, and governments that welcome foreign investment.

Eric Bandholz: How can someone protect assets if a government freezes accounts?

Thorup: Bitcoin is one tool — specifically, self-custody Bitcoin, not coins held on exchanges such as Kraken or Binance. If you don’t control the keys, you don’t control the coins. I’ve used Bitcoin since 2016, and it’s useful, but it’s not the only solution.

Offshore bank accounts are another strong option. That means holding a bank account in a country where you’re not a resident. Debanking — where financial institutions terminate services —  happens more often than people think, even in one’s own country.

Every adult, company, or trust should have bank accounts in three countries, each with a different currency and legal system. If a home-country bank freezes or closes your account, you have alternatives.

Properly structured offshore accounts make it much harder for lawsuits or government actions to reach your money. Asset forfeiture and account freezes happen, and they’ll continue to happen, so planning is essential.

Bandholz: Where do people typically open offshore bank accounts?

Thorup: Offshore banking usually means choosing a country with low or zero taxes, strong asset-protection laws, and political stability. There’s no point banking in a place where you can’t reliably move money in or out. The most common offshore jurisdictions are in the Caribbean, the British Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man. In Europe, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, and Switzerland serve that role. Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore are popular in Asia.

Central America also has several strong options, such as Panama, where I live. It has no tax on foreign-sourced income, a stable banking sector, a U.S. dollar economy, and access to both the Caribbean and the Pacific.

Bandholz: Where should people start if they want to explore international options?

Thorup: I recommend three key fronts.

First, get a second citizenship or permanent residency. If you have European ancestry, you might qualify for citizenship by descent. If not, consider citizenship by investment or naturalization through long-term residency. If citizenship isn’t an option, permanent residency is fast, affordable, and effective in Paraguay, Costa Rica, or Panama.

Second, secure a second home. Even a small property provides a place to live if needed. Ideally, it can generate rental income. In Latin America, condos start around $65,000 and beachfront homes around $100,000, paid in cash, with clear property titles. These are long-lasting, tangible assets that protect wealth outside stocks or business accounts.

Third, hold capital offshore, whether in a bank, precious metals, or other assets. This ensures access to your money if domestic accounts are frozen or restricted due to politics or other issues.

Bandholz: Where can people follow you, connect with you?

Thorup: ExpatMoney.com. Follow my YouTube channel and connect on X or LinkedIn.

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Dec 6 2025
CFO: Brands Rarely Max Out Meta Ads

Abir Syed is an accountant turned marketer turned chief financial officer. He says ecommerce marketing success largely depends on creative volume, and few merchants have exhausted any channel, much less Meta.

Abir is co-founder of UpCounting, an accounting and fractional CFO firm in Montréal, Canada. In our recent conversation, he shared common financial mistakes of merchants, key metrics to monitor, and, yes, how to grow ad revenue on Meta.

The entire audio of our conversation is embedded below. The transcript is edited for clarity and length.

Eric Bandholz: Who are you and what do you do?

Abir Syed: I am the co-founder of UpCounting, an accounting and fractional chief financial officer firm focused on ecommerce. We handle everything from basic bookkeeping and transactional work to high-level needs, such as due diligence, back-office implementations, cash flow forecasting, and financial modeling.

I am also a certified public accountant and previously ran both an ecommerce brand and a marketing agency. Most finance professionals lack hands-on experience in advertising or customer acquisition, but I have lived those challenges, and that background significantly shapes how I advise founders.

Marketing is usually an ecommerce brand’s most significant expense; understanding it is essential for providing meaningful financial guidance. So we structure our reporting, dashboards, and forecasting around the realities of ecommerce operations — not just accounting accuracy but actionable insights tied to contribution margin, customer behavior, marketing performance, and growth strategy.

Bandholz: What is the most common financial mistake founders make?

Syed: I see three major issues repeatedly. First, many founders track the wrong numbers. They monitor revenue or look at profit once a month, but rarely examine contribution margin or cash flow. Contribution margin is often ignored entirely, leading to major blind spots. Top-line revenue means little without understanding the economics underneath.

Second, operators often misunderstand what is required to enable growth. I am frequently asked to review struggling ad accounts. A recurring issue is underinvesting in creativity. Founders try to force growth by pushing return on ad spend harder, rather than improving the creative foundation required to scale spend while maintaining healthy acquisition costs.

Third, omnichannel brands frequently fail to separate channel performance. I see profit and loss statements with a single cost of goods sold line combining, say, Shopify, Amazon, and wholesale. Blending everything prevents founders from seeing how each channel is truly performing. Wholesale, for instance, operates on a very different cash cycle.

Bandholz: How often should operators review their financials?

Syed: It depends on the business’s size, complexity, and growth goals.

Most operators should review key historical metrics weekly — cash flow, expenses, and anything unusual moving through the business. A weekly cadence helps identify problems early.

More detailed reporting, such as margin and channel breakdowns, is usually best reviewed monthly. That interval provides cleaner data and enough distance to spot trends rather than reacting to noise.

The most overlooked piece is forecasting. Few brands build forward-looking financial models because it is difficult, yet essential for aggressive growth. Forecasting helps you understand the implications of scaling. Conservative operators can get away without it, but brands pushing hard need projections. Too many founders grow quickly with no plan, no modeling, and no clarity on future cash needs.

Bandholz: How do you decide if a marketing channel is maxed out?

Syed: It is difficult to know with total certainty, but in most cases, brands have not truly saturated a channel, especially Meta. There is usually far more room available than teams realize.

I often compare similar brands in the same category. One might spend $200,000 a month on Meta while also allocating resources to podcasts, TikTok, affiliates, and other channels. Another in the same space might spend $200,000 a day on Meta. They often have similar products, audiences, and brand quality. The difference is creative volume. The larger spender produces an enormous amount of fresh creative, while the other is effectively using a strategy from years ago.

Most brands have not come close to saturating Meta. They are simply underfunding creative strategy.

Increasing creative volume opens new audience pockets and helps find additional winning ads. If the creative that got you to $200,000 in monthly sales has plateaued, you must increase output to climb further. The more the creative volume, the higher the revenue. The pace depends on profitability, reinvestment capacity, creative quality, and a bit of luck.

Working with a media-buying agency that also produces creative can cost upwards of $7,000 per month, ideally under 10% of ad spend. Smaller brands may temporarily spend as much as 30%.

Bandholz: How should brands budget for bookkeeping?

Syed: Smaller brands face a minimum cost for competent bookkeeping. Hiring in-house rarely makes sense until the company is very large. A Shopify-only brand doing $1–5 million annually should expect to spend $2,000-$3,000 per month. Cheaper options exist, but the trade-off is often lower accuracy and weaker communication.

The challenge is that many founders cannot discern whether financial data is clean. It is similar to hiring an internet security expert when you lack technical knowledge — you might overlook major issues until something breaks. We have onboarded many clients who tried cheaper options, only to find their data was consistently incorrect.

To scale aggressively or make data-driven decisions, you need accurate, timely financials and guidance on interpreting them.

Once a brand surpasses roughly $5 million in annual sales, bookkeeping for multiple sales channels typically costs $5,000 to $8,000 per month.

Bandholz: Where can people support you, hire you, follow you?

Abir: Our site is UpCounting.com. I’m on LinkedIn, Instagram, and X.

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Nov 29 2025
Will Google’s AI Mode Dominate ChatGPT?

Jeff Oxford is my go-to interview for ecommerce SEO. The founder of Oregon-based 180 Marketing, an agency, Jeff first appeared on the podcast in 2022 when he addressed SEO’s “four buckets.” I invited him back late last year to explain AI’s impact on search traffic and how merchants can adapt.

In this our latest interview, he shared optimization tactics for ChatGPT, with a caveat: Google’s AI Mode could eventually dominate.

The entire audio of our conversation is embedded below. The transcript is edited for length and clarity.

Eric Bandholz: Welcome back. Please introduce yourself.

Jeff Oxford: I’m the founder of 180 Marketing, an agency focusing exclusively on ecommerce SEO. A big part of that lately has been helping brands navigate AI-driven search.

We work with seven- and eight-figure ecommerce companies, helping them grow organic traffic and conversions through the fundamentals — search, content, link building — and now layering in what I call “AI SEO.” Basically, optimizing so you show up in places like ChatGPT and other large language models.

I’ve worked in ecommerce SEO for about 15 years. I ran my own ecommerce sites before then, but I learned I’m better at marketing than operations. So I shifted into ecommerce SEO. Over the past year, I’ve focused heavily on ChatGPT and AI-driven SEO because it’s changing how people discover products.

There’s confusion around what to call this new discipline. Entrepreneurs often say “AI SEO.” The SEO community prefers “GEO,” which stands for Generative Engine Optimization. I’ve also heard “AEO” for Answer Engine Optimization and “LLMO” for Large Language Model Optimization. I prefer the simplicity of AI SEO. My team focuses on where traditional SEO and AI-powered optimization overlap so brands can benefit from both.

Premium ecommerce brands face an uphill battle with Google. Higher prices often lead to higher bounce rates, and Google responds by pushing those sites off page one, regardless of quality. ChatGPT, however, focuses on semantic relevance and draws from multiple sources. Some merchants are now seeing more conversions from ChatGPT than from traditional Google search.

Bandholz: Is ChatGPT the Google of AI SEO?

Oxford: Yes. We work with many ecommerce sites, giving us a broad data set. When we review analytics for AI-driven referrals, about 90% come from ChatGPT. Perplexity is usually second, followed by Claude and Gemini.

But tracking performance is much harder than with Google. Traditional SEO is simple to measure — Shopify or Google Analytics clearly shows organic search traffic and revenue. ChatGPT works differently. Users ask a question, get recommendations, and may or may not click through directly.

Often, they copy the product or brand name and search it on Google. That behavior means ChatGPT rarely appears in analytics as a referral source. Instead, its influence shows up as branded search traffic, which makes attribution tricky.

Bandholz: Are companies moving toward direct sales inside ChatGPT?

Oxford: Shopify and OpenAI announced a collaboration for direct checkout through ChatGPT, but I haven’t seen it widely implemented. Shopify merchants will eventually allow customers to purchase directly inside ChatGPT. Stripe merchants will have similar options through new tools that let developers enable in-chat transactions.

However, I’m unaware of any tracking tools — no equivalent of Google Search Console or Bing Webmaster Tools. Unless ChatGPT introduces advertising, there’s little incentive to build detailed analytics. If ads become part of the platform, I could see them adding conversion pixels and performance tracking, but that’s speculative.

Looking ahead, I suspect Google’s AI Mode may ultimately dominate. ChatGPT accounts for roughly 90% of AI-driven search referrals, but Google is positioning AI Mode as the future. It began as a beta feature, moved into the main interface, and now appears as an “AI” tab alongside images and videos and in the Chrome search bar. If user engagement remains strong, Google could eventually make AI Mode the default over traditional search results.

Despite ChatGPT’s growth, Google search traffic hasn’t declined. Studies show that Google search volume has increased slightly. ChatGPT holds only 1–2% of the search market share — less than DuckDuckGo. Google still commands the vast majority of actual information-seeking queries.

Bandholz: How do I get Beardbrand ranking in ChatGPT?

Oxford: All AI search tools run on LLMs. Just as traditional SEO focuses on Google, we focus on ChatGPT because it holds the largest share of AI-driven discovery. Improvements made for ChatGPT usually help across the other platforms.

The process starts with prompt research, similar to keyword research. Target prompts tied to high-volume transactional keywords — such as “best beard oil” or “where to buy beard oil.” Informational prompts like “what is beard oil” are too top-of-funnel to convert. Once you identify the core prompts, optimize your site around them.

Begin with your About page. The first sentence should clearly state that Beardbrand is a leading provider of beard oil. Maintain your brand voice afterward, but clarity in the opening line helps LLMs understand your core identity.

Next, optimize category and product pages with conversational FAQs, detailed specification tables, clear unique selling points, and defined use cases or target audiences. These elements help LLMs parse and match your products to user prompts.

For blog posts, include expert quotes, statistics, citations, and simple language. Update old pieces. Recency heavily influences whether ChatGPT cites a page. However, maintain a hyper-focused site — remove outdated or off-topic content to improve your likelihood of being referenced in AI search results.

Bandholz: What else should we know?

Oxford: The biggest takeaway is that AI SEO relies heavily on brand mentions, similar to how traditional SEO relies on link building. In AI search, these mentions — often called citations — strongly correlate with whether ChatGPT recommends your products. Your first step is finding “best beard oil” articles across the web, especially those ChatGPT frequently cites. Then work to get your products included.

Send samples, offer substantial affiliate commissions, and accept break-even on those sales if it increases your presence in authoritative lists. These citations can meaningfully influence ChatGPT’s product recommendations.

Digital public relations also helps. Create data or stories journalists want to reference — for example, statistics about beard trends, grooming habits, or consumer preferences. Unique data tends to get picked up, generating high-value brand mentions.

Another helpful tool is Qwoted. It’s similar to Haro but with a paid model that filters out spam, so journalists actively use it. Reporters from Forbes, Inc., HuffPost, and even The Wall Street Journal post requests for expert quotes. Ecommerce founders can easily respond to topics such as tariffs, AI adoption, and hiring. These quotes often generate both brand mentions and backlinks, helping both AI SEO and traditional SEO. Paid plans start around $100 per month, and a single top-tier mention usually justifies the cost.

Bandholz: Where can people hire you, follow you, find you?

Oxford: Our website is 180marketing.com. I’m on LinkedIn.

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Nov 22 2025
Solar Power Developer on Fueling the Grid

Chris Elrod is a renewable power entrepreneur. His company, Treaty Oak Clean Energy, builds massive solar projects that provide electricity for large corporations and utility firms.

It’s boom times for electricity generators as the likes of Google, ChatGPT, and Amazon scramble for reliable sources.

How, exactly, does a company build a solar-generating plant and then sell the electricity to end users? I asked Chris those questions and more in our recent conversation.

Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for clarity and length.

Eric Bandholz: Who are you, and what do you do?

Chris Elrod: I’m the CEO and co-founder of Treaty Oak Clean Energy, a renewable energy developer based in Austin, Texas. We build large solar and battery projects that connect directly to the grid and power enterprise users and tens of thousands of homes. I’ve spent about two decades in the energy industry, mainly in project finance and large-scale infrastructure.

Before Treaty Oak, I co-founded AP Solar, a Texas-based firm focused on utility-scale solar projects. After seven years, we exited the company, and my partners and I used the proceeds to form Treaty Oak with a broader mission and larger geographic footprint. We launched in 2022 and sold the company to Macquarie Asset Management, a private equity investor, in the same year. I continue to lead the business as CEO.

It’s been a journey from early corporate roles to scrappy two-guys-in-a-truck entrepreneurship to running a PE-backed national developer. Every step has sharpened our approach to building and scaling renewable infrastructure.

Bandholz: How big are these projects?

Elrod: They are modern power plants spread across thousands of acres. We secure land, obtain entitlements, build the generation infrastructure, and integrate the projects into the grid. Electricity demand, once flat for years, has surged due to AI and industrial onshoring. The grid needs far more generation, and large-scale solar and storage can be deployed at speed and scale.

This year, we’ll raise roughly $1.1 to $1.2 billion in third-party capital. About $800 million will finance two Louisiana solar projects, with a third under construction in Arkansas. Together, they represent approximately 500 megawatts [the equivalent power needs for roughly 400,000 homes per year].

Bandholz: Walk us through the financing of a large solar installation.

Elrod: Project finance relies on predictable long-term cash flows. Solar assets typically have a 40-year useful life based on warranties and technology. Battery projects run about 25 years because of cell degradation. Lenders don’t lend for the full duration. They usually analyze an 18-year window and determine whether they could recover capital.

Most projects refinance around year five of operation. Lenders want repayment earlier because their funds aren’t structured to hold fixed-rate debt for decades. We pay down a portion through scheduled maturities and then refinance the rest. Long-term interest rates, not short-term, drive our financing costs. The primary lenders in this space are large European and Japanese commercial banks.

Most deals use a club structure where several lenders share the debt equally to balance risk. Another option is underwriting, where one or two banks commit to a large initial ticket and later syndicate portions to others. It speeds execution but costs more.

We’ve gone hands-on, working directly with multiple lenders instead of relying on a single underwriter. It requires additional effort but gives us better control of terms and relationships.

Between debt and equity, it’s primarily a cost-of-capital decision. Interest rates are still several percentage points above 2022 levels, which affects infrastructure returns. Even so, debt remains cheaper than equity because shareholders require higher returns. As long as project fundamentals support it, debt is more efficient and preserves equity while improving overall economics.

Bandholz: How do macro events such as tariffs and supply chain disruptions affect your projects?

Elrod: We monitor macro factors constantly — interest rates, regulatory shifts, and especially tariffs. Tariffs bring real uncertainty. Some policies may serve a strategic purpose, but others affect components that the U.S. cannot yet manufacture at the required scale or cost. Volatility is the most challenging aspect because tariff actions can change quickly.

We shift risk to customers and suppliers where possible, and stay agile. If policy signals suggest a tariff might hit, we may accelerate procurement or import components early. It’s less about a perfect strategy and more about informed, rapid adaptation.

Solar panels are a significant cost driver, but so are steel pilings, racking systems, copper and aluminum cabling, and engineered materials. Some manufacturing exists in the U.S., and more will grow, but not enough to meet current utility-scale demand at the required price or quality. Global supply chains remain essential.

Tariff risk is exactly why contract structure matters. We can’t commit to pricing and later absorb unexpected cost increases that eliminate project margins. We’ve avoided that so far by locking in supply-chain terms early and keeping customer pricing stable from the start. Our goal is to shield customers from volatility while protecting shareholder value. That requires constant coordination, nimble procurement, and effective risk transfer.

Our customers — major corporations and operators — need reliable, clean power to support accelerating electricity demand. Solar generation combined with storage remains the fastest, most scalable solution.

Bandholz: How have you built your team?

Elrod: Our power markets team manages sales end-to-end. They identify customers, respond to requests for information and proposals, submit projects, and run procurement and communication. I support them, but they lead the process.

Our company has grown from about 17 people when we sold to Macquarie in 2022 to over 100 today. Building the right culture has been essential. Our message is “execute with excellence,” and that means staying vigilant across every part of the business.

Hiring has been challenging. Post-Covid labor dynamics and the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act in 2022 increased competition and wage pressure. We sometimes hired too quickly to fill roles. Now we use structured scorecards for senior positions, with clear criteria aligned with the company’s objectives. Our people and culture team works closely with hiring managers to ensure each candidate is the right fit. We maintain transparency and quarterly performance alignment to keep teams focused and accountable.

The U.S. still offers enormous opportunities. Demand for electricity, infrastructure, and clean generation is expanding rapidly, and the market has the capacity to support substantial growth.

Bandholz: Where can people reach out to you or get advice?

Elrod: Our website is TreatyOakCleanEnergy.com. Reach out to me on LinkedIn.

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Nov 15 2025
Natural Toothpaste Propels Wellnesse.com

Seth Spears is a Colorado-based entrepreneur who once taught consumers how to make their own non-toxic personal care products. He says customers valued the results but not the actual production process. “They kept asking us for ready-made versions,” he told me.

So he launched Wellnesse, a direct-to-consumer brand producing all-natural self-care goods, in 2020. Toothpaste quickly became the dominant item.

In our recent conversation, Seth shared the origins of Wellnesse, the demand for holistic oral care, marketing challenges, and more.

Our entire audio is embedded below. The transcript is edited for length and clarity.

Eric Bandholz: Who are you, and what do you do?

Seth Spears: I’m the founder and chief visionary officer of Wellnesse, a B Corporation that produces all-natural personal care products. Our flagship item is a mint-flavored whitening toothpaste, made without toxic ingredients such as fluoride, glycerin, or sodium lauryl sulfate. We believe what goes in or on your mouth affects your entire body, so our focus is on safe, effective alternatives that outperform conventional options.

Our toothpaste’s key ingredient is micro hydroxyapatite, a naturally occurring mineral that makes up your teeth and bones. Unlike fluoride, it helps remineralize and repair enamel, filling soft spots and even reversing minor cavities. We’ve received hundreds of testimonials from customers who’ve seen major improvements in oral health.

We also use extracts from neem, a tree native to India, for whitening, and green tea extract for overall gum and tooth health — ingredients that work synergistically for stronger, cleaner teeth. Many customers with sensitive teeth, often longtime Sensodyne users, report reduced sensitivity and better results after switching to our toothpaste.

Before Wellnesse, I co-founded Wellness Media, a health education company that taught people how to make their own personal care products. Our audience loved the results but didn’t want the hassle of making them, so they kept asking us to sell ready-made versions. As an entrepreneur, I recognized repeated demand as a business opportunity.

We launched Wellnesse in 2020 as a natural personal care brand, starting with toothpaste, shampoo, conditioner, and deodorant. While we still offer all those, oral care quickly became our most successful category and is now our primary focus.

Bandholz: Many consumers are rethinking fluoride and turning to holistic dentistry.

Spears: We work closely with holistic and biological dentists through an advisory board that reviews the latest science on safe, effective oral care. These practitioners reject outdated methods such as routine drilling and fluoride use, instead emphasizing the role of diet, supplements, and the natural oral microorganisms.

We partner with influencers and communities that value non-toxic living. Our customers aren’t looking for the cheapest option; they want products that align with a clean, health-conscious lifestyle. They’ve often dealt with dental or health issues and are now seeking a more advanced, fluoride-free option.

As awareness grows around the connection between lifestyle and oral health, holistic dentistry continues to gain momentum. Consumers are questioning ingredients and demanding transparency.

Bandholz: So you’re growing through these practitioners. How do you find them?

Spears: There’s a strong network of holistic and biological dentists with their own organizations and conferences. We’ve sponsored several of those events in recent years to build relationships and raise awareness of our products.

Many connections also happen organically. When customers mention their holistic dentist, we often ask for introductions. Sometimes those dentists reach out after patients recommend us.

We maintain both affiliate and wholesale programs. Some dentists stock our products, while others prefer to promote them. We provide samples for dentists to share with patients, to experience the benefits firsthand. This multichannel approach ensures our partnerships remain authentic and genuine.

Bandholz: What marketing tactic is working best in 2025?

Spears: Growth has slowed in 2025. It’s been a challenging year. Meta remains our primary customer-acquisition channel, but performance has declined compared to previous years. We’re still bringing in new customers there, but it’s taking more testing and creativity to find what resonates.

Our most effective Meta approach has been a “us versus them” comparison, showcasing our clean, natural ingredients side by side with those in major brands. It highlights how our formulas are safer and more effective without being confrontational. We avoid targeting specific corporations directly. Procter & Gamble and similar enterprise brands have deep pockets and legal teams, and we’re not looking for that kind of fight.

We’re experimenting with Reddit ads, especially in health and oral care subreddits, as well as some campaigns on X. However, the results have been weaker on those channels. We’re now in full testing mode, trying different angles and messaging. We often focus on ingredient quality, but we also use influencer-style videos featuring real customers.

We had a strong email list (from my Wellness Media company) built through educational content — podcasts, blogs, and tutorials focused on health, vitality, and natural living. We regularly sent newsletters featuring recipes and DIY personal care guides, which helped us cultivate a loyal, informed audience.

When we launched Wellnesse, that list gave us a ready-made customer base. Many of those subscribers prioritized holistic health, and several became affiliates.

The landscape has undergone significant changes since then. Traditional affiliate marketing, based on content sites and email lists, has largely shifted toward influencer marketing on social media. Today’s promotions rely on selfie-style videos and personal testimonials, which feel more authentic to audiences. To me, this trend is too self-focused — but it’s undeniably where attention and conversions are happening.

An agency manages our ad strategy, so my focus is on broader direction and messaging rather than daily campaign tweaks. Overall, there’s no single breakthrough channel at the moment. It’s about constant experimentation and adapting to the changing ad landscape.

Bandholz: I heard that once enamel is gone, you can’t rebuild it. Is that true?

Spears: Not entirely. Teeth consist of hydroxyapatite, so when toothpaste contains that mineral, its tiny particles can penetrate crevices and help remineralize enamel. But oral health isn’t just about brushing; it’s also heavily influenced by diet and mouth acidity.

If you’re consuming a lot of processed or sugary foods or drinking soda, your mouth becomes more acidic, which can lead to cavities. Brushing helps, but it can’t fully offset a poor diet. A nutrient-dense, low-sugar diet rich in protein and vegetables supports stronger teeth and overall health.

I prefer a paleo-style diet — lean meats, fruits, vegetables, nuts— but there’s no one-size-fits-all approach. Everyone’s body chemistry is different. Getting blood work and allergy testing can help you understand your individual needs and optimize both oral and full-body health.

Bandholz: Where can people follow you, reach out to you, buy your products?

Spears: Our site is Wellnesse.com. My personal website is Sethspears.com. We’re on Instagram and Facebook. Find me on LinkedIn.

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